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Created 12 January 2021 12:14
Really sorry but I cannot get on FE connect and I know this is on a previous thread. Learner on a standard on programme aim has completed all activities including EPA on 17/1220 with a completion status of 2 and outcome code 8. When we receive EPA results is this the achievement date and when the 8 becomes 1 or 3 and is it the achievement date which is due in January will trigger a payment in January ?
Thankyou in advance for your help
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Recording apprenticeship standard completions
For apprenticeship standards that complete their learning on or after 1 August 2019, when all of the training and end point assessment elements have been completed, the following should be recorded:
When the training period for the apprenticeship standard is complete, but the end point assessment period is incomplete, the Outcome must be recorded as code 8 ‘Learning activities are complete but the outcome is not yet known’. When the end point assessment period for the apprenticeship standard is complete, the Outcome field must be update accordingly. If the apprenticeship standard has resulted in a failure at the end point assessment, the Outcome on the programme aim must be recorded as code 3 ‘No achievement’. If the apprenticeship standard is successfully achieved following the end point assessment, the Outcome on the programme aim must be recorded as code 1 ‘Achieved’.
All open and closed learning aims that are part of the apprenticeship standard programme must be returned on the ILR until the standard is completed.
In order to be recorded as ‘Completed’ (Completion status code 2), both the training and end point assessment activities for the programme must be completed. An end point assessment that has resulted in a failed outcome can be classed as complete as long as the learner reaches the end of the end point assessment period, rather than withdrawing. If either of these have not been completed, then the programme aim cannot be recorded with Completion status code 2.
12 January 2021 12:26
I've been having an on-going discussion the the Agency about this which is deep deep in the semantic bushes about the definition of "completed"...
As far as I'm aware, 2&8 will trigger the completion payment (all other things being equal) if you add the date the learner completed the EPA in the field that is called AchDate (because, per the ILR definition, the learner has *completed* all the elements of the EPA).
Just 2&8 on their own without a value in AchDate won't trigger the completion payment.
If you use the date you get the result as the AchDate that's also basically fine (I've lost the will to argue) and that will be the month you get paid (again, assuming no other issues with eg employer contribution)
12 January 2021 12:27
Thankyou to you both. So my options are
ACH date is completion of final EPA which is still pending result from EPAO - payment will be triggered in month of ACH date entered
Comp 2 Outcome 8 and then when result comes use this as ACH date and change outcome field (1 or 3) and payment will trigger again as ACH date has been entered. All Component aims are closed with Learning actual end. Its just from last EPA activity to receiving result on some of our standards is taking some time and if we can use ACH date to trigger we will and just go back and change outcome as we receive it. This isn't breaking any rules and the guidance is a little wooly like Steve said. I am thankful for your expert advice.
12 January 2021 12:42
No the completion status remains at 1 (continuing) until the EPA is completed and results are known.
12 January 2021 12:46
So leave as a 1 until results are published. Is this the same for the achievement date also as all EPA components have ended and we are just pending a result. Once the result is in it becomes a 2 with a pass/fail is result date ach date. I am sorry for all the questions its so confusing
12 January 2021 12:55
The EPAO should advise you when the EPA has been completed and you can use this date in the achievement date field to indicate the completion date.
12 January 2021 13:06
It definitely doesn't say that the result needs to be know before completing the AchDate Martin, but I'm resigned to us not agreeing on this.
12 January 2021 13:26 (Edited)
Thank you both for your advice.
12 January 2021 13:36
The completion status for standards can only be recorded as complete (2) when the result pass or fail is known, see the guidance below:
12 January 2021 14:57
But, but it doesn't say that... There's no reference to needing to know the result at all (and resits, of course, is where this gets stupidly complicated). A provider is perfectly cognisant of when a learner has done all of the parts of their EPA without needing this confirmed by the EPAO (and, if the rules said it needed to be confirmed by the EPAO I'd be fine with that, but those words aren't there).
When learners take their classroom exams in June we complete them, even though we don't know the results until August/September, that's what completion means and why 2&8 exists, and the wording used in the bit you're quoting above doesn't fundamentally change what "completed" means...
12 January 2021 15:18
Where your argument fails is with 2 & 8 as this is not an option for standards under any scenario although it can be with other types of delivery and funding streams.
12 January 2021 15:34
Some of our staff can't get their head around 1,8 so record apprentices who have completed learning as 2,8 with Achievement Date missing - don't think it causes any issues, so why do we even have to record them as 1,8?
13 January 2021 10:56
I have no words excepting that is the guidance.
13 January 2021 10:59
I am sad that there is no longer a "like" button as there was on FEConnect :)
13 January 2021 11:09
We just follow Steve's approach and use 2,8 across the board, staff have too many other important things to remember when dealing with apprenticeships, so as this appears to make no material difference to anything, its not a priority for us.
13 January 2021 11:11
Why not follow the guidance as not doing so may cause other issues with FM and DSAT reporting?
13 January 2021 11:15
Does a delay on the EPA affect receiving an achievement payment at all? My learner completed the learning aims within the time period set but is now poorly, this will affect when their EPA takes place and could be 3 months or more, so because the EPA will be later than we'd originally hoped, when the learner does achieve, will we still receive an achievement payment?
22 January 2021 08:49 (Edited)
Can we achieve an apprentice if only seen the info from the EPAO hub? It shows that EPA has been passed and the date of certificate has been issued. It used to be a strict requirement to have a copy of standard certificate in place for claiming achievement. Has the rule been changed or relaxed?
22 January 2021 13:34
It was never a requirement to have a copy of standard certificate as certification is passed from EPAO to Employer.
22 January 2021 14:48 (Edited)
That's really helpful. I attended a LSECT meeting years ago, was told that we must get a photocopy of certificate from the employer for audit purpose. Is this clearly stated in the funding rules or updates?
22 January 2021 15:36
@Martin West huh where did I come in to this discussion?!
Generally for App standards once delivery is finished and the student is ready to go through gateway we set the programme aim with an AED, Comp status 1, outcome 8 as per funding rules. This makes sense since we want the student to go through end of year as current (CS 1) if the EPA isn't due to be sat until the next academic year. Currently the QAR doesn't take this into account and still only uses the AED but this may change for 21/22.
Once the EPA has been sat and you have confirmation the student attended etc. I guess you could update the Achievement date and Comp Status leaving you with the result still needed from the EPAO but we wait for the result to update these fields.
26 January 2021 12:03
The @ part of the website is broken, so when you look at someone else being @ ed it shows your user name, regardless of who has actually been @ ed!!!
26 January 2021 12:10
I reported it before christmas, but it's still broken.
26 January 2021 12:11