Sarah Wartnaby

Term time - Help



By the looks of it there has been a few discussions around Term time, I have looked at guidance and a calculator but need help in explaining how we calculate someone's OTJ and duration based on below:

Learner working details - example:

Monday-Friday ,6 Hours a day (9am-3pm)


Weekly hours 28

No working for 13 weeks


I have tried the sheet by Steveh and do wish to wonder what we use for the "Usual duration weeks" - I think we have got ourselves in a muddle with it :)

Any help is welcome





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Would be what you'd deliver the same app in if someone was not TTO (so, if you'd usually deliver it in 15 months, put 60 weeks in) . Or, if you're *only* delivering it to TTO, maybe the expected duration on the Standard description on the IfATE website? Either way, shouldn't be less than 52!

Martin West

This is complicated as they are not working full time either in duration or working hours, but recent case law has determined that term for time only contracts holiday entitlement should not be calculated as part time employees (pro rata) but that they are entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday pay based on the average pay over the last 12 week period.

To determine their actual duration which should be 39 weeks worked plus holiday 5.6 weeks = 44.6 weeks at 28 hours, 1248.8 hours with average 24 hours /week worked

This would increase the min duration to 65 weeks less holiday entitlement (7 weeks) = 58 at 24 hours per week giving OTJ hours of 278.4

This is confirmed in the template as the same as a full time standard apprentice

And the same as for the expended duration for a part time apprentice.

Sarah Wartnaby

Awesome! thank you for both your times and explanations, it is greatly appreciated. 

Jenny Rollinson

Hi, following on from this query I would welcome some advice as to whether I should input the actual hours worked per week or the average hours worked per week into the ILR in the employment intensity indicator.  I am getting errors on my PDSAT report as I am entering the actual hours and there is an error raised regarding OTJ hours as we are calculating based on the actual hours worked so the OTJ hours calculation looks too low.  Should I log the average hours worked across the extended duration due to P/T and/or TTO?




Ooh, good point!

I think I'd leave the actual per week and then just annotate the PDSAT. Remember nothing in PDSAT is a definite error, otherwise it would be a rule violation, they're all Are You Sure? reports. So annotate with "App is TTO, average hours are xx" or similar which you can show to an auditor.

Jenny Rollinson

Thanks, Steveh, very helpful.

I have another query relating to why a query may be coming up on PDSAT.  It is on report 21A-103 where it flags average weekly off the job training hours.  We have quite a few learners on this report where it suggests the average weekly hours are below the minimum expected of 6 per week.  This will be the case where I have increased duration for the TTO or PT aspect as they may work considerably less than 30 hours per week but I have a learner that works 30 hours all year round (18 month duration) with 418 OTJH and it is calculating 5 hours per week when it should be 6.  Can you shed any light on why this may be?