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Created 08 February 2022 10:12
We are thinking of changing our delivery plan for Functional Skills maths and English whereas we put the start dates on the ILR for 3-4 months and then the rest of the standard aims will start 3-4 months later. Are we able to do this ?
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Yes although you must include the Programme aim from the start date as well, but any other aims can be added later when they start.
The ILR should reflect reality
08 February 2022 10:49
Thank you for coming back to me. If we do go ahead with this delivery plan. What are the funding implications? Would this mean we would start to get paid for the functional skills delivery first and then the rest of the funding will start when we start the standard ?
08 February 2022 10:52
No as funding for the standard comes from the Programme aim, funding for the standard will be drawn down between its start and planned end date and funding for FS would be drawn down over the first 3 months.
08 February 2022 11:02
Therefore if the programme aim start date is the same for functional skills and the standard we still then would need to deliver a bit of each ? We would not be able to start delivery on functional skills then start the standard bits later ?
Does that make any sense :)
08 February 2022 13:17
FS dates must match attendance evidence, you shouldnt be using the same dates as the Standard. It would also stretch the FS funding over the full period of the Apprenticeship which wont match actual delivery.
If you dont have FS dates when they start the Apprenticeship just enrol them for the Apprenticeship and add on the FS aims once you know the correct dates.
08 February 2022 14:31 (Edited)
Our current delivery model is that all aims within the standard have the same start date and expected achievement date. However, we want to focus heavily on maths and English first before we start on the standard, is this possible ? or do we have to deliver part of the standard as we go as the programme start date would be the standard start too ?
08 February 2022 14:35
Yeah I'd advise against recording the same dates as the Standard as that wont match reality and could get you in trouble in a funding audit.
I've not seen any examples of FS being completed before the Apprenticeship start date unless you're funding the FS via AEB funding. Martin/Steve may be able to shed some light re if this is allowed.
08 February 2022 14:40 (Edited)
Thanks for your help. I understand that we can start the functional skills at some point in the apprenticeship but my plan was to deliver them first before any other elements where started to for example weekly functional skills sessions to start and finish within 3 months
Maths 08/02/2022 - 08/05/2022
English 09/05/2022 - 09/08/2022
Standard 10/08/2022 - 10/09/2022
Programme start date would be 08/02/2022 and planned end would be 10/09/2022
Would this work ?
08 February 2022 15:00
If the FS aims are being linked to an apprenticeship then possibly not but Im not 100% sure. That specific model is not something I've seen previously.
FS is traditionally delivered alongside the Standard or beforehand but via AEB funding
08 February 2022 15:06 (Edited)
The AEB will not fund:
80.5. training through ESFA funded AEB, where a learner is undertaking or planning to undertake an apprenticeship and where that training will:
80.5.1. replicate vocational and other learning aims covered by the apprenticeship standard or framework, including English and maths
80.5.2. offer career-related training that conflicts with the apprenticeship aims
80.5.3. be taking place during the apprentices working hours. Where an apprentice has more than one job, working hours refers to the hours of the job the apprenticeship is linked to
The only drawback is that the Programme will be extended if you deliver the FS first and that will lead to an increase in the minimum OTJ hours.
08 February 2022 16:28
Hi Martin Im aware you cant enrol on AEB whilst on a Apprenticeship .
I was refering to delivering FS under AEB before the start of the Apprenticeship. We do this for our construction apprentices to get it out of the way. K
08 February 2022 16:33 (Edited)
You cannot do that as the AEB rules state they will not fund where they are 'planning to undertake an apprenticeship', you would fall fowl at Audit. It is due to the difference in the funding rates.
08 February 2022 17:10
Hi, can I just double check that it is correct and possible to front load Functional Skills (FS) within a programme so these are completed first as per Keli's question?
We are aware we would need to extend the programme to enable a learner to complete English, and/or maths then the Standard (which would also mean the minimum OTJ would have to be increased and cover the whole of the programme).
09 February 2022 09:38
Thanks for coming back to me Martin.
One last question on this subject if you don't mind. How will the payments work if we do deliver the Functional Skills as stated above in the example delivery plan? will the main on programme payments start once the standard starts ?
09 February 2022 09:40
Keli Burns apologies Keli this post was on a question I had raised so re-posted onto yours :-)
It would not be my preferred method of planning an Apprenticeship programme due to extending the programme and increased OTJ hours requirement but there is nothing in the funding rules that prohibits front loading FS.
Even though you may not be delivering KSB for the standard in the first few months the on programme payments will start as of the start of the practical period, but this is no different to block release training which may be condensed at the start, during or at the end.
2 days ago
11 February 2022 14:19 (Edited)