Apprenticeship Break in Learning - New Rules

I must admit, I don't really see what they've clarified here.. I was sure that's what it's always said.

But no, I don't think it's necessarily saying we can't ever adjust the PED by more than the BIL duration.. just not by default. Like you've said, in most cases that would be what we'd do.. but if the learner's circumstances have changed upon their return, we'd surely be entitled to re-plan delivery in accordance with those circumstances. 

It has been in since 01/08/2021 from the clarification and version 1.

P54: Added clarity around breaks in learning and the impact on off-the-job training

I think this was brought in to reinforce that a BIL was not to be used to facilitate a change in duration although for a restart not from a BIL it is acceptable.

HTH

No Ben that is exactly what the rule says for a return from a BIL.

Its the same principle as you must not change the planned end date.

Martin West unless there are mitigating circumstances which would affect the new POT e.g. a change to part time working which would affect the minimum duration

No again as the minimum duration would have already been met in the original record and the overall duration would be reinstated in the restart record, if they change to part time working this would only be reflected in a revised commitment statement.

Do comments in this thread not suggest otherwise, when considering an extension to the PED after returning from a BIL? Further education and training providers community - Part Time AFTER Break In Learning

Yes I missed the change in the rule as well and can only assume it was brought in to avoid changing the duration when returning from a BIL.

I have gone back a few years and checked that this is not a change but the way it has always been for a BIL.

2018/19

P37. When the apprentice takes a period of leave from their work, for reasons such as medical treatment, maternity or paternity leave, this will be a break in the training they are to receive (a break in learning). The apprentice and their employer should revise the date in the apprenticeship agreement on which the apprenticeship was expected to have been completed to account for the duration of the break. The duration of the apprenticeship and the amount of off-the-job training needed to meet the 20% requirement would therefore remain the same as though there had been no break in training (break in learning).

This had always pretty much been my understanding too, hence why on the one hand I was a bit surprised in the other thread that we were saying we could extend the PED further than simply by the BIL duration.. but on the other I could see why we might be able to because we'd only be diluting the OPPs over a longer period. 

My view is, if the intent is that the PED extension must always be exactly the same duration as the break, that should be stated explicitly in the rules. Currently, it's just implied, but if that's what they want, they should be using words like "must", and it should be in the PSM in the bit about restarts. I know for sure that we're not the only provider that hasn't always extended by exactly the duration of the break, and it's not even always to extend, but sometimes shorten.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with that if it's the rule, and it would save us having to add more OTJ if we wanted them to carry on a bit longer, so actually makes life easier. We might have a late completion, but that would have happened without a break anyway. We've never given a longer end date specifically to avoid a late completion, there was always a genuine reason.

Hi Guys, 

This is what I've always done except if on return their circumstances are different.  However, have moved to a new employer and had a conversation with a member of our team who is telling me, that you can extend the PED to beyond the number of days they have taken during their BIL because they would need to complete the modules within the course they missed due to BIL in the next available cohort of Learners in the next academic year and therefore  if we were just to add the number of days on their BIL to the original PED then they wouldn't be able to complete their apprenticeship timely.  (I think that's what they said).

Could someone please advise and point me to where it says this in the funding rules or anywhere else for that matter and does it give proper details and clarification so can't be interpreted to whatever you want.  Thanks in advance

It has always been the rule that you cannot extend or reduce the PED to beyond the number of days they have taken during their BIL, to those that dispute this please indicate any ESFA documentation that has said otherwise.

The rule is clear as it has always been.

Sorry, I'm having a bit or an argument with the Service Desk who are telling me you can not extend the PED even by the time they expended on their BIL and must use the original PED.  And have now asked me to contact the apprenticeship service instead!

Can someone give me some guidance to where in the rules it actually says you can do this

On return from a BIL the PED should only be extended by the duration of the break see below.

P35.2.1 Where the apprentice takes a break in learning and then returns to the same apprenticeship, the apprenticeship agreement must be revised, to account for the duration of the break. It must be clear that there have been multiple episodes of learning. The overall duration of the apprenticeship and the required volume of off-the-job training can remain the same (as though there had been no break in learning).

Perfect Thank you Martin x

Although I love how they use the word Can and not Must = very ambiguous

The overall duration of the apprenticeship and the required volume of off-the-job training can remain the same (as though there had been no break in learning).

Jaci Littlewood That's just absurd. How would you deal with someone already passed their original PED when they restarted? You can't have a start date after the PED. The apps funding rules says;

P299.4 Extend the practical period of the apprenticeship agreement as required.

Also, Provider Support Manual says;

Learning planned end date

• Programme aim: New planned end date for the programme

• Component aim: New planned end date for the learning aim

Martin - I do agree broadly about extending the PED by exactly the length of the break, but what if they go on a BIL after their PED? That's totally possible for an apprentice who has got behind on their apprenticeship. What duration would you record for the restart?

Also, which exact paragraph of guidance says the extension must be exactly the same as the break? P35.2.1 doesn't say that, "take into account" is not a black and white directive to do that. It even says "can remain the same", not "must".

Ruth Canham-James

I agree, the rules are funding rules and no longer guidance so are by no means perfect and need to be more specific if they want to be called rules.  What is more frustrating is when you are emailing back and forth all day with the Service Desk pointing out each paragraph they posted to you, the conflict and contradiction in each just asking what the ruling is.  Clearly they at the end they didn't want to answer and ask me to contact the Apprenticeship Service for clarification.  God help everyone at audit is all I can say